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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 9, 2017 9:23:39 GMT 10
Discussion of matters relating to the genres of "Grunge" and "Post-Grunge".
From the "Rate the Music Genres" thread: Post-Grunge: 7.5/10 Post-Post-Grunge: 6.5/10 Just out of curiosity, where would you draw the boundary between Post Grunge and " Post-Post Grunge"? The boundary would vary depending on the country, however I would personally consider 1999 to be the turning point between the two, with "Higher" by Creed ushering in the new 'sub-sub genre' of Grunge. Of course, it wasn't a "day and night" change, although I do believe the transition was less drawn-out and more drastic in the US. "Hanging by a Moment" by Lifehouse would probably be the last song to bear any similarities to '90s post grunge/alternative-rock, in my opinion (at least in America).
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Post by #Infinity on Dec 9, 2017 10:24:24 GMT 10
Discussion of matters relating to the genres of "Grunge" and "Post-Grunge".
From the "Rate the Music Genres" thread: Post-Grunge: 7.5/10 Post-Post-Grunge: 6.5/10 Just out of curiosity, where would you draw the boundary between Post Grunge and " Post-Post Grunge"? The boundary would vary depending on the country, however I would personally consider 1999 to be the turning point between the two, with "Higher" by Creed ushering in the new 'sub-sub genre' of Grunge. Of course, it wasn't a "day and night" change, although I do believe the transition was less drawn-out and more drastic in the US. "Hanging by a Moment" by Lifehouse would probably be the last song to bear any similarities to '90s post grunge/alternative-rock, in my opinion (at least in America). Yes, "Higher" by Creed was officially the song that ushered in the era of post-post-grunge, taking the already commercialized aspects of 90s post-grunge and upping them to the point where there was hardly any semblance left whatsoever of the original Seattle movement's angsty, jaded crudeness and instead being pure pop, just with some of the elementary traits of grunge, i.e. scratchy-voiced lead singers and (slightly) distorted guitars thrown in for mild effect. Even compared to Creed's first album, Human Clay was a venture into sellout territory for the band. The song was originally a hit on rock stations in 1999, but it emerged a mainstream sensation around the spring of 2000, and subsequently, bands like 3 Doors Down, Fuel, Staind, Puddle of Mudd, and Nickelback were jumping on the bandwagon and achieving massive commercial success. If I'll be honest, I would say the tail-end of the 90s wave of post-grunge was Oleander's "Why I'm Here," a pretty big rock airplay hit in mid-late 1999 that featured on the American Now 3 and contains mopey lyrics and production that genuinely resembles Soundgarden's "Black Hole Sun" and Nirvana's "Heart-Shaped Box," despite being infinitely cheesier. There were plenty other 90s post-grunge bands who survived into the early 2000s, such as Incubus and Everclear, but bands like that, who didn't polish up their style, instead just integrated other influences to distinguish themselves from their 90s work. "A.M. Radio," for instance, is rather pretty different from "Santa Monica," and Live's "Heaven" has a more polished sound and more contemporary lyrics than even "I Alone," the 90s Live song it resembles the most. "Hanging By a Moment" has aspects about it that sound like they could fit in with 90s rock, but the song is polished enough that I honestly think it fits the 2000s decade decently, as well. There were other songs like that, which could be considered first wave post-grunge, that were made around the turn of the millennium, but they were mostly on the cusp of evolving trends. "Why I'm Here" is really the last song of the genre that sounds unmistakably 90s, in my opinion.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 9, 2017 12:02:49 GMT 10
Yes, "Higher" by Creed was officially the song that ushered in the era of post-post-grunge, taking the already commercialized aspects of 90s post-grunge and upping them to the point where there was hardly any semblance left whatsoever of the original Seattle movement's angsty, jaded crudeness and instead being pure pop, just with some of the elementary traits of grunge, i.e. scratchy-voiced lead singers and (slightly) distorted guitars thrown in for mild effect. Even compared to Creed's first album, Human Clay was a venture into sellout territory for the band. The song was originally a hit on rock stations in 1999, but it emerged a mainstream sensation around the spring of 2000, and subsequently, bands like 3 Doors Down, Fuel, Staind, Puddle of Mudd, and Nickelback were jumping on the bandwagon and achieving massive commercial success. If I'll be honest, I would say the tail-end of the 90s wave of post-grunge was Oleander's "Why I'm Here," a pretty big rock airplay hit in mid-late 1999 that featured on the American Now 3 and features mopey lyrics and production that genuinely resembles Soundgarden's "Black Hole Sun" and Nirvana's "Heart-Shaped Box," despite being infinitely cheesier. There were plenty other 90s post-grunge bands who survived into the early 2000s, such as Incubus and Everclear, but bands like that, who didn't polish up their style, instead just integrated other influences to distinguish themselves from their 90s work. "A.M. Radio," for instance, is rather pretty different from "Santa Monica," and Live's "Heaven" has a more polished sound and more contemporary lyrics than even "I Alone," the 90s Live song it resembles the most. "Hanging By a Moment" has aspects about it that sound like they could fit in with 90s rock, but the song is polished enough that I honestly think it fits the 2000s decade decently, as well. There were other songs like that, which could be considered first wave post-grunge, that were made around the turn of the millennium, but they were mostly on the cusp of evolving trends. "Why I'm Here" is really the last song of the genre that sounds unmistakably 90s, in my opinion. Yep, I agree that "Why I'm Here" would be one of the last "90s post-grunge" songs to have been released and achieved commercial success. I also tend to agree actually that "Hanging By a Moment" would be on the 'cusp' of both genres, as it does share similarities with the two. It sounds stylistically different from the material Nickelback, Creed and the ilk were releasing at that time, however it is more polished and has greater commercial appeal than it's '90s predecessors. Interestingly enough, "Why I'm Here" didn't even chart here. In fact, I wasn't actually aware of the song, until I noticed it being mentioned on inthe00s. It's surprising that it was even successful in the US, considering that the country was already well caught up in the Y2K cultural period and Creed had emerged onto the scene. The fact that "Why I'm Here" didn't chart in this country, has got me a bit curious as for what the last "90s post grunge" hit could have been in Australia. Alternative-rock was still quite popular here in the Early 2000s, however like you mentioned in the bottom paragraph, most of the '90s post-grunge bands who managed to survive into the Early 2000s had altered their style to a significant degree. Garbage, in particular, were still massive here during the Early 2000s, but even their releases were noticeably more polished and differed from their Mid-Late '90s work. I think you could make a case for these two songs being the last "90s post grunge" songs: Released in 2001, this song actually peaked at #33 and stayed on the ARIA chart for 13 weeks. The irony in this, is that Lash were a "manufactured" band. They never wrote their own songs and all of their songs were produced/managed by the one person. Just as a side note, this song (as well as their follow-up single, "Beauty Queen") was actually featured in Freaky Friday, although the former was covered by another band. I remember I mentioned once before that I could imagine the Foo Fighters releasing this song and I think it's because it is in the form of Late '90s Post-Grunge. This song peaked at #26 and stayed on the charts for 8 weeks back in Late 2004. Either way, it's a stark contrast from other post grunge singles being released at that time. Either way, I personally think that the two songs I shared above sound quite out of place for their time. They do admittedly sound a bit more polished than the Post-Grunge songs released in the Mid-Late '90s, however I do think that they lean more towards the genre than the Post-Grunge songs of the 2000s. Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on them?
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Post by #Infinity on Dec 10, 2017 5:08:00 GMT 10
Interestingly enough, "Why I'm Here" didn't even chart here. In fact, I wasn't actually aware of the song, until I noticed it being mentioned on inthe00s. Well, it wasn't really that big of a song – it only did particularly well on the Mainstream Rock Chart and did moderately well on the Modern Rock Chart, not appearing on the Hot 100 or Mainstream Top 40 – but it was still representative of where the rock world was in 1999, and its inclusion on Now 3 is proof that it made at least somewhat an impact. It probably didn't chart in Australia because, firstly, it would have been imported, and second, it apparently didn't even have a music video, hence why you only see the bizarre artwork of the album it came from in the link I posted.Yeah, 90s-style post-grunge was certainly dying by 1999, but until 2000, there were still definitely remnants of the movement. Bands like My Own Prison-era Creed, Days of the New, Marcy Playground, Jerry Cantrell, Everclear, Hole, Tonic, Smashing Pumpkins, and Our Lady Peace were all scoring pretty big rock station hits all throughout the late 90s. Oleander got successful during that really awkward transitional period when 90s alternative rock was well past its prime, but 2000s-style pop rock had not yet replaced it. Really, it was only when "Higher" moved beyond its rock airplay success of 1999 into nationwide megahit status in 2000 that distinctly 90s rock was completely obliterated from the mainstream. Right after "Higher," you had "Kryptonite" and the #1 song "With Arms Wide Open," which fully cemented post-post-grunge's staying power.Yeah, Garbage scored one of the biggest rock crossover hits of 1999 with "Special," essentially no different stylistically from stuff like Republica's "Ready to Go" from late 1996, but their third album underperformed here, at a time when groups like Staind, blink-182, and Puddle of Mudd were dominating the charts.Sounds like they were to post-grunge what Vixen were to hair metal – a female-led counterpoint to a mostly male genre, but with songs written by other people. I agree this song sounds pretty 90s, though I mostly imagine it belonging in 1999, as it's sort of one of those "Hanging By a Moment"-style cusp songs, just with a slightly greater lean towards the 90s.I actually had to look up the song separately because the person who uploaded the video didn't make it watchable in the United States (ugh, the barriers between American and Australian music from our perspective...). Honestly, I don't think it's really that un-2000s. It resembles a lot of the pop punk being released in the early/mid-2000s like "Ocean Avenue," "The Middle" (technically emo, but still very 2000s), and "In This Diary." I think the lead singer's voice and appearance give it the illusion of a 90s grunge song, but I think it actually sounds like its of its time. I mean, Chris Cornell was still huge in the mid-2000s thanks to Audioslave, and the Foo Fighters were still one of the biggest rock bands throughout the entire decade, even continuing into 2011 with Wasting Light.They're both quite good, though I think I actually prefer the former. It has the same punchy attitude as Hole's "Malibu" but paced more mid-tempo. The latter feels more mature than most rock songs that became particularly big hits at the time, i.e. "The Reason," even though it's maybe not quite up to par with the best 90s grunge songs.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 12, 2017 12:24:19 GMT 10
Well, it wasn't really that big of a song – it only did particularly well on the Mainstream Rock Chart and did moderately well on the Modern Rock Chart, not appearing on the Hot 100 or Mainstream Top 40 – but it was still representative of where the rock world was in 1999, and its inclusion on Now 3 is proof that it made at least somewhat an impact. It probably didn't chart in Australia because, firstly, it would have been imported, and second, it apparently didn't even have a music video, hence why you only see the bizarre artwork of the album it came from in the link I posted. Oh ok, I didn't realise that a music video was never produced for the song. It's interesting that "Why I'm Here" never achieved greater success, given how heavily influenced it is by "Heart-Shaped Box" and the fact that it even received strong criticism for it's notable similarities. The mere fact that it is so similar, makes it surprising that it didn't garner the public's attention and draw headlines. In fact, the two songs aren't just similar in terms of their production, the first few notes of "Why I'm Here" are even strikingly similar to "Heart-Shaped Box", in my opinion. I agree. I believe it could have been released in 1998/1999, but certainly not any earlier. Really? In this day and age, I believe it's ridiculous that geo-blocking is even still a thing. People can communicate with each other online from any part of the world, yet, depending on where you live, you are restricted from watching certain videos.  I guess geo-blocking does serve a purpose (especially if it's for political purposes), but if it's just for listening to music on YouTube, it shouldn't be applied. For instance, I can't actually watch the official upload of "Jessie's Girl" by Rick Springfield, which is ironic given that he is an Australian artist. Instead, I have to rely on a 240p video of the song. In relation to "My Completeness", I do tend to agree that it sounds very much a product of it's time. The main reason for me having the impression that it sounds like a "'90s-alt rock" song, is due to how much of a stark contrast it is to other Post-Grunge songs released at the time, as well as the bridge after the second chorus in the song. I couldn't imagine bands such as Nickelback, Puddle of Mudd etc. releasing a composition in the form of "My Completeness", which is why I believed it sounds somewhat like a Late '90s Post-Grunge song.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 14, 2017 1:31:45 GMT 10
I could have shared this in the "Past Predictions of Pop Culture" thread, but seeing as though it's more to do with the then-current state of Grunge music, I decided to share it in here:
Watch 22:13 onwards. It's interesting to hear Kurt's views on Post-Grunge, which was then referred to as "Grunge Lite". The thing to consider, is that this interview was filmed in Late 1993. Bands such as Live, Collective Soul and Bush had yet to emerge onto the scene, so the genre wasn't really defined at that point.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 18, 2017 9:03:44 GMT 10
You could maybe make a case for this song being one of the last first-wave Post Grunge songs. Although, the chorus is probably a little bit too polished for it to truly be a first-wave Post Grunge song. It was released in 2001. Oddly enough, it only peaked at #89 on the ARIA Chart, despite the fact that Spiderbait's earlier singles were much more successful.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Feb 4, 2018 23:29:27 GMT 10
Discussion of matters relating to the genres of "Grunge" and "Post-Grunge".
From the "Rate the Music Genres" thread: Just out of curiosity, where would you draw the boundary between Post Grunge and " Post-Post Grunge"? The boundary would vary depending on the country, however I would personally consider 1999 to be the turning point between the two, with "Higher" by Creed ushering in the new 'sub-sub genre' of Grunge. Of course, it wasn't a "day and night" change, although I do believe the transition was less drawn-out and more drastic in the US. "Hanging by a Moment" by Lifehouse would probably be the last song to bear any similarities to '90s post grunge/alternative-rock, in my opinion (at least in America). Yes, "Higher" by Creed was officially the song that ushered in the era of post-post-grunge, taking the already commercialized aspects of 90s post-grunge and upping them to the point where there was hardly any semblance left whatsoever of the original Seattle movement's angsty, jaded crudeness and instead being pure pop, just with some of the elementary traits of grunge, i.e. scratchy-voiced lead singers and (slightly) distorted guitars thrown in for mild effect. Even compared to Creed's first album, Human Clay was a venture into sellout territory for the band. The song was originally a hit on rock stations in 1999, but it emerged a mainstream sensation around the spring of 2000, and subsequently, bands like 3 Doors Down, Fuel, Staind, Puddle of Mudd, and Nickelback were jumping on the bandwagon and achieving massive commercial success. If I'll be honest, I would say the tail-end of the 90s wave of post-grunge was Oleander's "Why I'm Here," a pretty big rock airplay hit in mid-late 1999 that featured on the American Now 3 and contains mopey lyrics and production that genuinely resembles Soundgarden's "Black Hole Sun" and Nirvana's "Heart-Shaped Box," despite being infinitely cheesier. Just out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on "Take a Picture" by Filter? Would you consider it to be a first-wave '90s Post-Grunge song or a "hybrid", like in the form of "Hanging by a Moment"? I was listening to "Take a Picture" a few minutes ago and it struck me as being more of an outright '90s post-grunge/alternative-rock song.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Jun 14, 2021 19:09:49 GMT 10
slashpop I finally got around to listening to Late! after I remember you suggesting not long ago that it is worth checking out. To be honest, i'm still more of a fan of the Foo Fighters debut, however I thought Late! was a pretty good album/EP as well. My favourite song on it would have to be "Color Pictures of a Marigold"; the Late! version is so much better than the B-side reworking that appeared on the "Heart Shaped Box" single release.
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Post by slashpop on Jun 14, 2021 23:05:24 GMT 10
slashpop I finally got around to listening to Late! after I remember you suggesting not long ago that it is worth checking out. To be honest, i'm still more of a fan of the Foo Fighters debut, however I thought Late! was a pretty good album/EP as well. My favourite song on it would have to be "Color Pictures of a Marigold"; the Late! version is so much better than the B-side reworking that appeared on the "Heart Shaped Box" single release. It’s an unknown gem. For me it’s better than most of the foo fighters material. I don’t know what it is but Dave grohl lost a lot of his grunge attitude even on the first album and became more of a normie, it went along with the short air and having that people pleaser get along with everyone attitude and the group by 1997-1998 got lumped bands and fans of bands like sugar ray, feeder, weezer, matchbox 20, fuel and lit. Foo fighters lost their alt rock edge by 1996. Even the first album feels too pop-post grunge to me but bands like bush, moist and silverchair were more in the spirit of nirvana around that time than the foo fighters. Dave Grohl from 80s-1993/94 is almost a different person than the Dave growl from 1995 to the present. Maybe kurts death changed him.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Jun 14, 2021 23:35:52 GMT 10
It’s an unknown gem. For me it’s better than most of the foo fighters material. I don’t know what it is but Dave grohl lost a lot of his grunge attitude even on the first album and became more of a normie, it went along with the short air and having that people pleaser get along with everyone attitude and the group by 1997-1998 got lumped bands and fans of bands like sugar ray, feeder, weezer, matchbox 20, fuel and lit. Foo fighters lost their alt rock edge by 1996. Even the first album feels too pop-post grunge to me but bands like bush, moist and silverchair were more in the spirit of nirvana around that time than the foo fighters. Dave Grohl from 80s-1993/94 is almost a different person than the Dave growl from 1995 to the present. Maybe kurts death changed him. That has always been the theory I've had. Kurt's death was likely one of the worst things to have ever happened to Dave, and I think Kurt's passing left such a huge impact on him that he started to see life/music in a different light. Maybe he wanted to move on from alt-rock/grunge because it brings back bad memories? Even if you watch recent interviews with Krist and/or Dave, you can tell that Kurt's death is still a very sensitive topic for them and they both never really got over it.
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I guess geo-blocking does serve a purpose (especially if it's for political purposes), but if it's just for listening to music on YouTube, it shouldn't be applied. For instance, I can't actually watch the official upload of "Jessie's Girl" by Rick Springfield, which is ironic given that he is an Australian artist. Instead, I have to rely on a 240p video of the song. 
