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Post by John Titor on Mar 13, 2021 12:34:05 GMT 10
did it feel weird to anyone else ?
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Post by John Titor on Mar 14, 2021 1:50:06 GMT 10
I’m sure it did with 2Pac getting killed & Subrina the Teenage Witch debuting which started the trend of witch shows. I wasn’t born yet. Wasn’t Y2K culture, Shiny Suit rap & teen pop gaining steam around this time? I remember u mentioning grunge receiving backlash or being made fun of around this time. it was gaining steam but wasn't there quite yet, Spice Girls Wannabe video in the United States didn't start playing in the morning on mtv until January 97. Same with shiny suit rap it would take a few more months. Grunge was 100% getting a backlash @ the time and culture with it. The Simpsons made front of it on an episode that aired in Spring 96, this is when I knew GenX/Grunge sub culture was dying, the whole episode was The Simpsons sh*tting on the culture. Ironic after this episode aired Grunge became even MORE uncool lol
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Post by John Titor on Mar 14, 2021 7:30:53 GMT 10
it was gaining steam but wasn't there quite yet, Spice Girls Wannabe video in the United States didn't start playing in the morning on mtv until January 97. Same with shiny suit rap it would take a few more months. Grunge was 100% getting a backlash @ the time and culture with it. The Simpsons made front of it on an episode that aired in Spring 96, this is when I knew GenX/Grunge sub culture was dying, the whole episode was The Simpsons sh*tting on the culture. Ironic after this episode aired Grunge became even MORE uncool lol
I guess when grunge started receiving backlash, that’s when the slow transition 2 the late 1990s began or the transition began in late 1996 or early 1997. By mid or late 1997, I think it was a late 1990s world with teen pop & Shiny Suit all over the radio. I don’t know if Shiny Suit was around in Britain, but I think teen pop was charting there in 1996 & lasted thru 2003. Summers of the years ending in ‘6’ like 1976, 1986, 1996, 2006 & 2016 r similar in that they were the end of the classic parts of their decades. I remember the end of summers 2006 & 2016 feeling weird & ominous as if stuff was about 2 go down. Similar 2 how years ending in ‘3’ r a bridge between the early & mid part of a decade, years ending in ‘6’ r a bridge between the mid & late part of a decade. Yeah there were think pieces on grunge is out in magazines & everything. Commercials started moving away from grunge fonts in 96 and adapted a more streamline look. As far Shiny Suit in Britain I am not sure tbh. Teen pop here in the states died TF off in between Spring 2001 - Late Summer 2001, and then all the former pop acts like Britney & Justin started using The Neptunes producers for everything. Nsync's FINAL single did so bad that they added Nelly @ the last min to get more radio air play (that is how far the teen pop sound fell off) I think in the UK teen pop lasted a little bit longer. 2006 as I have stated before felt like the final ending of the 2000s with Sam Goody, Suncoast, That 70s show , Malcolm In the Middle & The WB network ending along with Playstation 3 & wii........... However.... it didn't end and we skipped an ending phase until Late 2008. 2006 & 2007 were all possible exit entrances for the 2000s but they were not utilized until 2008. It 's like when you see a new movie for Fast & The Furious..ugh I thought the last one was the final movie lmao. 2009 was the epilogue of the 2000s, a wasteland of empty mall stores and upbeat music. I knew Pokemon Go in summer 2016 signaled the end of the last big classic 2010s pop culture moment.You could feel it.
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Post by slashpop on Mar 14, 2021 11:50:40 GMT 10
I’m sure it did with 2Pac getting killed & Subrina the Teenage Witch debuting which started the trend of witch shows. I wasn’t born yet. Wasn’t Y2K culture, Shiny Suit rap & teen pop gaining steam around this time? I remember u mentioning grunge receiving backlash or being made fun of around this time. it was gaining steam but wasn't there quite yet, Spice Girls Wannabe video in the United States didn't start playing in the morning on mtv until January 97. Same with shiny suit rap it would take a few more months. Grunge was 100% getting a backlash @ the time and culture with it. The Simpsons made front of it on an episode that aired in Spring 96, this is when I knew GenX/Grunge sub culture was dying, the whole episode was The Simpsons sh*tting on the culture. Ironic after this episode aired Grunge became even MORE uncool lol
Mid 96 felt a bit more revealing of the transitioning that already started earlier but mid 90s culture was mostly predominant. The spice girls wannabe video was actually filmed in July 1996 in England and recorded in December 1995 before being released in Jan 97 in NA. I remember walking into guess jeans in summer 1996 and noticing some clothing that felt different than grunge and core 90s clothing. PlayStation 1 and Sega Saturn and PC were starting to overshadow the Snes by mid 96 a bit more than earlier. Even music with a stronger late 90s vibe in rock already was to some extent already there by mid 96. I Mother Earth, the wallflowers and other groups kind of co existed with grungey stuff. Rap and electronic music starting giving a few more late 90s hints. Pure Grunge and second wave of gen x culture really took off around 1988-1989 was was slowly dying and transitioning since mid to late 1994. Post grunge like moist, our lady peace, silverchair and bush appealed to late gen Xers and early millennials from late 1994 to 1997-98, next to pop punk, trip hop, electronica and new metal and other stuff. All the genres that started out or blew up in late 1994 were slowly replacing grunge and getting bigger between 94 and 1996. Smashing pumpkins were more alternative and pop/rock with a grunge attitude and influence. The only grunge bands left after 1993-1994 were soundgarden, Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and Stone Temple Pilots and maybe a few others and they were releasing their last albums and being overshadowed by the above new genres since 1994. Bands like Korn, 311, Tricky, Portishead, No Doubt, Green Day, Skunk Anansie and Bush were already bigger than grunge by 1995 and there was more of a growing division between the music of 1988-1993-1994 around then despite it co existing with it to some extent.
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Post by slashpop on Mar 14, 2021 17:29:28 GMT 10
I’m sure it did with 2Pac getting killed & Subrina the Teenage Witch debuting which started the trend of witch shows. I wasn’t born yet. Wasn’t Y2K culture, Shiny Suit rap & teen pop gaining steam around this time? I remember u mentioning grunge receiving backlash or being made fun of around this time. 2Pac died in the fall. Real grunge was slowly dying throughout late 94 to 1996. Shiny suit era started out around mid 1997. There were a few more stand out Y2K elements in late 1996, compare to 94- summer 96, but it wasn’t that era yet, it still in the middle of transitioning to the late 90s not Y2K era. 1994-1995 post grunge took over. 1995-1996 barely had any real grunge on the charts. 1996-1997 grunge loosing steam became more apparent. 1997-1998 is when grunge was mostly gone with a few exceptions. Real post grunge ( bush, our lady peace etc) was still going strong through mid to late 1996 to early 1998 and to to a much lesser extent mid 1998 to early 1999. August 1996, especially the end of it, definitely had even more late 90s vibes compared to the rest of the summer. I would even lump up late 1996.
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Post by slashpop on Mar 14, 2021 18:08:13 GMT 10
2Pac died in the fall. Real grunge was slowly dying throughout late 94 to 1996. Shiny suit era started out around mid 1997. There were a few more stand out Y2K elements in late 1996, compare to 94- summer 96, but it wasn’t that era yet, it still in the middle of transitioning to the late 90s not Y2K era. 1994-1995 post grunge took over. 1995-1996 barely had any real grunge on the charts. 1996-1997 grunge loosing steam became more apparent. 1997-1998 is when grunge was mostly gone with very minor exceptions. August 1996, especially the end of it, definitely had even more late 90s vibes compared to the rest of the summer. I would even lump up late 1996. Did Cobain's death in spring 1994 result in real grunge "dying throughout late 94 to 1996" ? I think around late 1997 or 1998 is when the Y2K era began and the core 1990s died. I believe the transition to late 1990s culture begin in late 1996 or in the 2nd 1/2 of 1996. His death definitely helped. Pop punk, post grunge were massive by the end of 1994 and there were no massive grunge albums like from 89-early 94 after his death the last being super unknown by soundgarden from early 94. I would say mid going into late 1998 is it when it began, gradually between late July and October 1998 and it some parts of the world spring-summer 1998 or spring 1999. 1997-1998 was still late 90s and core 90s with less of the darker culture still hanging in late 96-early 97 and there definitely were Y2K things but it wasn’t there yet, it was still more late 90s. I view late July/August 1997 to around March 1998 or May-June 1998 to be an era of its own in a way. Purest late 90s. Transition to the late 90s started mid 96 but became more visible around August-November and wasn’t as in your face until spring 1997 then finally full circle and completed around August 1997.
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Post by slashpop on Mar 14, 2021 19:16:25 GMT 10
His death definitely helped. Pop punk, post grunge were massive by the end of 1994 and there were no massive grunge albums like from 89-early 94 after his death the last being super unknown by soundgarden from early 94. I would say mid going into late 1998 is it when it began, gradually between late July and October 1998 and it some parts of the world spring-summer 1998 or spring 1999. 1997-1998 was still late 90s and core 90s with less of the darker culture still hanging in late 96-early 97 and there definitely were Y2K things but it wasn’t there yet, it was still more late 90s. I view late July/August 1997 to around March 1998 or May-June 1998 to be an era of its own in a way. Purest late 90s. Transition to the late 90s started mid 96 but became more visible around August-November and wasn’t as in your face until spring 1997 then finally full circle and completed around August 1997. That all makes sense. 1997-1998 was in a weird in between era it seems with the Y2K stuff becoming noticeable, but core 1990s elements hanging on. I hear that core 1990s shows like Seinfeld ended in spring 1998. So the 2nd 1/2 of 1997-1st quarter of 1998 or mid 1998 would be peak late 1990s. By spring 1997, Biggie Smalls died & teen pop became prominent. 1997-1998 wasnt an inbetween era as much as purer late 90s year, like 1996-1997 without as many dark or mid 90s elements but a few still hanging unlike mid 98-2001 it was more late 90s than anything else ( Y2K or mid) and the last core 90s year but there were Y2K things and elements and related things that were building up a bit more than earlier like 95 or late 96-early 97 but late 90s was predominant.
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Post by John Titor on Mar 15, 2021 1:10:10 GMT 10
2Pac died in the fall. Real grunge was slowly dying throughout late 94 to 1996. Shiny suit era started out around mid 1997. There were a few more stand out Y2K elements in late 1996, compare to 94- summer 96, but it wasn’t that era yet, it still in the middle of transitioning to the late 90s not Y2K era. 1994-1995 post grunge took over. 1995-1996 barely had any real grunge on the charts. 1996-1997 grunge loosing steam became more apparent. 1997-1998 is when grunge was mostly gone with very minor exceptions. August 1996, especially the end of it, definitely had even more late 90s vibes compared to the rest of the summer. I would even lump up late 1996. Did Cobain's death in spring 1994 result in real grunge "dying throughout late 94 to 1996" ? I think around late 1997 or 1998 is when the Y2K era began and the core 1990s died. I believe the transition to late 1990s culture begin in late 1996 or in the 2nd 1/2 of 1996. our deciphering of where it began is a little different, and it also may depends on where you are living at the time, but for me the Y2K era started in Fall 97, some examples below that were in effect as Fall 97 went underway, Commercials on TV look shiny & Y2K (Fall 1997 Roll Out) + Spice Girls kicked off Teen Pop few months prior
Backstreet Boys - As Long As You Love Me - Music Video debuts on MTV late AugustRobyn - Do You Know - debuts on MTV August 1997 ( Max Martin Britney Spears Sounds )Fashion y2k take over as standard (magazine fonts, Even Sonic rebrands to his y2k Dreamcast design)
Digimon debuts in the United States in 1997 along with it's parent toy Tamagotchi ( starts digital pet craze)
ABC's TGIF went full on Teen mode and was ditching family programming (it started to happen in late 96) Shiny suit era of Rap as well as shiny suits
RPG's go full on POP culture with many ads of FF 7 on television every 5 min Carson Daly (y2k staple) debuts on MTV and becomes the DEFACTO host in Fall 1997 for their prototype TRL show
While there was still lingering core classic 90s things around ( it would take awhile to shake it off) it was clear what was becoming dominant at the time in late 1997, it was clear Y2K was the "new" thing
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Post by y2kbaby on Mar 15, 2021 2:42:05 GMT 10
I consider the fall of 1996 to have the first hints of the Y2K Era. How I see it.
September 1996-July 1997: Core 90s/Late 90s hybrid
August 1997-May 1998: Pure Late 90s Era
June 1998-April 1999: Late 90s/Y2K hybrid
May 1999-July 1999 Y2K with some Late 90s leftovers
August 1999-March 2000 Y2K Era
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Post by slashpop on Mar 29, 2021 6:29:43 GMT 10
I consider the fall of 1996 to have the first hints of the Y2K Era. How I see it. September 1996-July 1997: Core 90s/Late 90s hybrid August 1997-May 1998: Pure Late 90s Era June 1998-April 1999: Late 90s/Y2K hybrid May 1999-July 1999 Y2K with some Late 90s leftovers August 1999-March 2000 Y2K Era I mostly agree. The more I think about it we all have differing labels but agree to the changes. I think what we are calling the purest late 90s, spring/summer 97 to spring/summer 1998, some people may call the early or start of Y2k era or Y2k era part 1 but I think all of us can agree that there was a second part or division within the greater period in 1998 or 1999 with incoming early 2000s elements that weren’t there in the exact way prior that started at turning points within second half of 1998 and fall 1999 at most and lasting to early to around mid 2000 at the very most and slowly fading in 2000-2001, which could be called Y2K era part 2. Fatboy Slim, Five, Robbie Williams, Britney Spears and Christina Auglara, Len, Vengaboys, pop era limp bizkit Seem a bit different stylistic from: Aqua, Spice Girls, Hanson, Backstreet Boys early era, Prodigy, Chumbawamba. Overlap between two eras: Puff Daddy, Will Smith, Smash mouth, Destiny’s Child, Lil Kim, Aalyiah, Matchbox 20, Foo Fighters, Goo Goo Dolls May to August 1999 really had its own vibe. Probably the last era with substantial late 90s vibes
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Post by astropoug on May 18, 2022 17:12:54 GMT 10
Lots of people won’t agree with this, but for me, the late 90s as far as both music and gaming is concerned really began in late 1996 with the N64 release, Super Mario 64, 2pac’s death, and Marilyn Manson’s breakthrough. I consider late 1996-1998 to be the late 90s. The Y2K era for me began at the start of 1999 with the decline of industrial rock (hastened by Columbine) and big beat/techno (The Matrix was really the last hurrah for that sort of stuff), and rise of nu metal, pop punk, and butt rock (I.e. Creed). Not to mention Eminem exploding in popularity and redefining rap. The release of the Dreamcast, start of the Star Wars prequel trilogy, release of The Matrix (which we all know had a HUGE impact on the film industry), GWB announcing his run for president, shows like Futurama, SpongeBob, The Sopranos, and Family Guy all coming out, Pokémon becoming huge among the youth, and the Columbine massacre all seal the deal for me.
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Post by John Titor on May 19, 2022 7:21:04 GMT 10
Lots of people won’t agree with this, but for me, the late 90s as far as both music and gaming is concerned really began in late 1996 with the N64 release, Super Mario 64, 2pac’s death, and Marilyn Manson’s breakthrough. I consider late 1996-1998 to be the late 90s. The Y2K era for me began at the start of 1999 with the decline of industrial rock (hastened by Columbine) and big beat/techno (The Matrix was really the last hurrah for that sort of stuff), and rise of nu metal, pop punk, and butt rock (I.e. Creed). Not to mention Eminem exploding in popularity and redefining rap. The release of the Dreamcast, start of the Star Wars prequel trilogy, release of The Matrix (which we all know had a HUGE impact on the film industry), GWB announcing his run for president, shows like Futurama, SpongeBob, The Sopranos, and Family Guy all coming out, Pokémon becoming huge among the youth, and the Columbine massacre all seal the deal for me. to me the y2k era started in 1997, you started seeing teen pop rotated on the radio heavy, you saw the JRPG explosion started by Final Fantasy 7, Digimon (also known as) Tamagotchis both debuted in 1997, y2k fonts and designs started being promoted heavily at the time, even TRL debuted in 1997 as MTV Live ( before they added the countdown) There was a Y2K episode about Seinfeld filmed in 97, Sonic changed to his Dreamcast design in 1997 as well.
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Post by astropoug on May 19, 2022 8:14:59 GMT 10
Lots of people won’t agree with this, but for me, the late 90s as far as both music and gaming is concerned really began in late 1996 with the N64 release, Super Mario 64, 2pac’s death, and Marilyn Manson’s breakthrough. I consider late 1996-1998 to be the late 90s. The Y2K era for me began at the start of 1999 with the decline of industrial rock (hastened by Columbine) and big beat/techno (The Matrix was really the last hurrah for that sort of stuff), and rise of nu metal, pop punk, and butt rock (I.e. Creed). Not to mention Eminem exploding in popularity and redefining rap. The release of the Dreamcast, start of the Star Wars prequel trilogy, release of The Matrix (which we all know had a HUGE impact on the film industry), GWB announcing his run for president, shows like Futurama, SpongeBob, The Sopranos, and Family Guy all coming out, Pokémon becoming huge among the youth, and the Columbine massacre all seal the deal for me. to me the y2k era started in 1997, you started seeing teen pop rotated on the radio heavy, you saw the JRPG explosion started by Final Fantasy 7, Digimon (also known as) Tamagotchis both debuted in 1997, y2k fonts and designs started being promoted heavily at the time, even TRL debuted in 1997 as MTV Live ( before they added the countdown) There was a Y2K episode about Seinfeld filmed in 97, Sonic changed to his Dreamcast design in 1997 as well. All that might be true, but I still think of late 1996-1998 and 1999-mid 2001 as quite distinct from each other. To me, late 1996-1998 was the late 90s, and 1999-mid 2001 was the Y2K era. The late 90s is more similar to the Y2K era than it is the mid 90s, but not exactly the same when it comes to things like music, technology, video games, TV, movies, and even politics. Teen pop is one similarity between the late 90s and Y2K era, but rock and rap between the two in my opinion are quite distinct, with the late 90s being quite distinct from the mid 90s but still rooted in 90s culture, whilst the Y2K era is closer to the 2000s. Really, it's all down to things like Eminem (the quintessential rapper of the 2000s) blowing up in 1999. Both eras are futuristic, but it's different. Late 90s is more about aliens and conspiracies, whilst Y2K was all about cyberpunk. Contrast Men In Black with The Matrix, and you'll understand. Even when you bring up Sonic, the Y2K era was all about the Dreamcast, whilst the late 90s was purely rooted in the 5th gen and still had the Saturn. Sonic R is a prime example of a late 90s game. As far as discussion of the Y2K bug, turn of the millennium excitement, and paranoia surrounding it, honestly, that stuff was already starting in the mid-90s anyway. I remember seeing a Sega Saturn commercial talking about how we were 5 years away from the new millennium.
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Post by John Titor on May 19, 2022 8:39:21 GMT 10
The thing is about 1997 it overlaps very well with 1998 and 1999, and all the things that make of "y2k" are alive and kicking very fast. As a kid in the 4th grade in 1997 you could feel all the changes happen fast. Here is a little list of things that made the y2k and whether they correspond to 1997 or not. The changes you described like aliens and what not are so minute because they also were popular in 98 99 and 2000 (to some degree). 97 98 99 and 2000/early 2001 are all futuristic because it's the same era, the y2k era. With little increments as each year goes by. It's not separate at all, it's the same era that had things morph a bit in between. Y2K ness in 1997Y2k ads on Tv ? - YesY2K fashions popular ? - YesSonic Adventure redesign - YesTRL on MTV ? - YesTeen Pop on radio ? - YesRedesign of Logos ? - YesJRPG explosion ? - YesY2K bug hysteria - Yes Digital pet hysteria ? - YesPS1 and N64 overshadow everything ? - YesThe late 90s style started in late 96 when the Y2K era was in it's pre beta stage, that late 90s style is not exclusive in 1998 or 1999. I will agree Dreamcast is the most Y2k system,the reason why this system was mostly rooted in 5th gen is because developers had not caught up to 128 bit titles outside of Sonic Adventure, NBA 2K etc. Also have to add that Saturn commercial was not talking about the Y2K bug as it was not even mentioned in articles until 1997. The Y2K era was not all about the Dreamcast because that system did not even debut until 1999, 1998 and 1997 were pretty much Sega less spent years. The Ceo of Sega announced in Summer 1997 that they were ending support for Saturn in America. I remember Blockbuster not even carrying Saturn stuff anymore past Fall 97, with the last title I remember seeing was Lost World Jurassic Park. Also I have to add in 1998 we had this
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Post by astropoug on May 19, 2022 9:31:18 GMT 10
The thing is about 1997 it overlaps very well with 1998 and 1999, and all the things that make of "y2k" are alive and kicking very fast. As a kid in the 4th grade in 1997 you could feel all the changes happen fast. Here is a little list of things that made the y2k and whether they correspond to 1997 or not. The changes you described like aliens and what not are so minute because they also were popular in 98 99 and 2000 (to some degree). 97 98 99 and 2000/early 2001 are all futuristic because it's the same era, the y2k era. With little increments as each year goes by. It's not separate at all, it's the same era that had things morph a bit in between. Y2K ness in 1997Y2k ads on Tv ? - YesY2K fashions popular ? - YesSonic Adventure redesign - YesTRL on MTV ? - YesTeen Pop on radio ? - YesRedesign of Logos ? - YesJRPG explosion ? - YesY2K bug hysteria - Yes Digital pet hysteria ? - YesPS1 and N64 overshadow everything ? - YesThe late 90s style started in late 96 when the Y2K era was in it's pre beta stage, that late 90s style is not exclusive in 1998 or 1999. I will agree Dreamcast is the most Y2k system,the reason why this system was mostly rooted in 5th gen is because developers had not caught up to 128 bit titles outside of Sonic Adventure, NBA 2K etc. Also have to add that Saturn commercial was not talking about the Y2K bug as it was not even mentioned in articles until 1997. The Y2K era was not all about the Dreamcast because that system did not even debut until 1999, 1998 and 1997 were pretty much Sega less spent years. The Ceo of Sega announced in Summer 1997 that they were ending support for Saturn in America. I remember Blockbuster not even carrying Saturn stuff anymore past Fall 97, with the last title I remember seeing was Lost World Jurassic Park. Also I have to add in 1998 we had this Well, the PS1 and N64 took off in late 1996, which is when the 3D era really came onto its own. Teen pop on the radio was very quick to follow, as the Spice Girls started appearing a lot in early 1997. So my point stands, that a lot changed in the 1996-1997 school year. Even still, it wasn't exactly identical. The Spice Girls, who were predominately popular in the late 90s, are a combination of Y2K millennial teen pop, and the mid/core 90s Third British Invasion/Cool Britannia trends. By the time you get to 1999, Cool Britannia had gotten old. As far as gaming is concerned, I will contend that late 1996-mid 1999 was largely one era dominated by the 5th generation (peaking in 1998, which is often considered one of the best years in gaming history). Late 1999 is where things start to shift with the release of the Dreamcast. Late 1999-mid 2001 is transitional between the 5th and 6th gen, with the PS2 releasing in late 2000, but not exploding until late 2001. Late 2001 is also when the Xbox and GameCube release. To me, this is the Y2K era for gaming, obviously peaking in 2000 (with titles like Space Channel 5, Jet Set Radio, and Shenmue). I will also agree with you that the iMac played a HUGE role in establishing the Y2K era. We all know how it changed computing and Apple in general, and was influential to the aesthetics of the era. You can sort of trace that back to Steve Jobs' return to Apple, which occured at the start of 97. Really, I would say mid 1998 to late 2000 was the Y2K era of Apple, ending with the release of Mac OS X and the iBook G3 Snow in early 2001. As far as Y2K aesthetics are concerned, you can sort of trace it all the way back to the 2nd half of 1995, with things like Windows 95 and Wipeout. Windows 95 especially helped popularize that whole dreamy sky aesthetic that became huge by the Y2K era (which I might do a thread discussing). I don't consider mid 1995 purely mid 90s anymore simply because of things like the first E3, the Sega Saturn, and Windows 95. I think mid 1994 to early 1995 is pure mid 90s, and mid 1995 to late 1996 is the transition out of that, with early 1997 really marking the point where we firmly entered the late 90s. Early 1997 to early 1998 is pure late 90s. Mid 1998 is where we shift into the Y2K era with the release of the iMac, and late 1998 shifts us even more with Pokemon, and the Game Boy Color. By early 1999 is where we firmly enter the Y2K era in my opinion. The pure Y2K era to me is early 1999 to mid 2000, with late 2000 giving rise to early 2000s things like the PS2, digitally animated SpongeBob, Nokia 3310, and Jackass. It firmly ended in late 2001 with 9/11 and 6th gen consoles taking off. Pokemania was also dead by this point, and with the decline of the anime, cable networks like Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, and Disney Channel now dominated kid culture, firmly placing us into the 2000s in general.
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