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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 15, 2020 19:36:43 GMT 10
I've been wanting to create this topic for a while, but I just hadn't got around to doing so. The 1990s are an interesting decade to look back on. This may just be a result of my age and being too young to have any personal recollections of what the '90s were actually like, but to me, they have always given me the impression that they were a much more socially progressive time than what the 2000s were (especially the early-mid '00s). The decade saw the rise of alternative media (eg. grunge), multiculturalism, the third-wave of feminism, the open acceptance of individuality and staying true to one's self, as well as the gradual improvement in LGBTQ+ rights. The WHO removed homosexuality off it's list of diseases in 1990 and homosexual acts were completely decriminalized in the Western world. It was also noticeably progressive in other areas too. The breakthrough of alternative-rock in late 1991 resulted in topics such as depression, suicide and self-harm becoming less taboo. Whereas previous incarnations of rock had mostly focused on sex, partying and generally having a good time, the emergence of alt-rock in the mainstream changed all that and suddenly it became okay to talk about your feelings and express your inner-most feelings of sadness. The face of the subculture, Kurt Cobain, regularly campaigned for women's rights and asked all-female bands to co-headline a show with Nirvana. There was obviously still a long way to go (Ellen DeGeneres' career almost came to an end after she came out as a lesbian), but it's clear that a lot of social progress had been made over time and that attitudes towards minority groups were more on the "accepting" side of things. Here are a few examples of how forward-thinking the '90s were: {Spoiler}
This is from 1995. The manner in which the episode approaches the theme of cross-dressing seems pretty progressive to me. Even though the theme of it isn't exactly "in your face", the episode quite clearly makes the other guy in the laundromat appear as the "bad guy" and it even shows Mr Bean getting his revenge by swapping the coffee with the detergent. Also, Mr Bean wears the skirt for the rest of the episode, which is pretty noteworthy as he had no issue with taking off his pants/underwear in public earlier in the episode and he easily could have done the same thing with the skirt.
"Homer's Phobia" is a Simpsons episode from 1997 which is based on Homer's fear that his new friend's homosexuality will have a negative influence on Bart, but by the end of it, Homer comes to accept his friend's homosexuality and tells Bart that he will support him no matter how he chooses to live his life. When the episode first went to air in 1997, it received an overwhelmingly positive response from viewers and critics. The episode does a good job at depicting how outdated and backwards Homer's homophobia is.
The Cure is a 1995 drama film about a 13 year old boy who befriends an 11 year old who has contracted AIDS and the two of them go on a journey together to try and find a cure for it. It also paints the mother of the 13 year old in a bad light (she has a prejudice against AIDS) by depicting her as an emotionally and physically abusive mother. It's quite evident that there had been a significant shift in the general perceptions towards the LGBTI community and people from other minority backgrounds in comparison to what they were like twenty years earlier, when LGBTI people were still regularly stigmatised and even arrested by police in some areas/countries.
The Spice Girls had a great influence on gender equality due to their female empowerment anthems and their placing as one of the biggest names in the pop cultural sphere. They were the group responsible for entering "girl power" into the public consciousness.
I would argue that the 2000s were more socially progressive when it came to the greater recognition and acceptance of climate change, but in other areas, it actually feels more backward. I happened to catch an episode of "Desperate Housewives" while I was flicking through the channels the other day and even though the episode came out in 2007, it depicted the gay couple in the episode in quite a negative light (they built a water fountain in their front yard and arrogantly refused to take it down). One of the main characters introduced herself to them and then awkwardly tried to voice her approval of gay rights, even though the show made out that it wasn't how she really felt. It kind of took me by surprise that attitudes were still that bad even as late as 2007. As a decade, I would say that the '90s have more of an "open" and "embracing" cultural identity. I'm not sure if I would use those same terms to describe the cultural 2000s. For instance, the early 2000s in particular were defined by a sense of toxic masculinity due to nu-metal being at it's peak and bubblegum-pop also being on the charts, which only encouraged those attitudes of machoism as a form of backlash. That isn't taking into account the "pre-political correctness" and casual homophobic attitudes that were still prevalent throughout the entire decade. Of course, all this isn't to suggest that the '90s weren't without their problems as well, and there was still a long way to go in terms of achieving equality for minority groups. However, as an overall decade, I am personally of the belief that the '90s were generally more progressive than the 2000s. What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by slashpop on Dec 15, 2020 21:42:40 GMT 10
I've been wanting to create this topic for a while, but I just hadn't got around to doing so. The 1990s are an interesting decade to look back on. This may just be a result of my age and being too young to have any personal recollections of what the '90s were actually like, but to me, they have always given me the impression that they were a much more socially progressive time than what the 2000s were (especially the early-mid '00s). The decade saw the rise of alternative media (eg. grunge), multiculturalism, the third-wave of feminism, the open acceptance of individuality and staying true to one's self, as well as the gradual improvement in LGBTQ+ rights. The WHO removed homosexuality off it's list of diseases in 1990 and homosexual acts were completely decriminalized in the Western world. It was also noticeably progressive in other areas too. The breakthrough of alternative-rock in late 1991 resulted in topics such as depression, suicide and self-harm becoming less taboo. Whereas previous incarnations of rock had mostly focused on sex, partying and generally having a good time, the emergence of alt-rock in the mainstream changed all that and suddenly it became okay to talk about your feelings and express your inner-most feelings of sadness. The face of the subculture, Kurt Cobain, regularly campaigned for women's rights and asked all-female bands to co-headline a show with Nirvana. There was obviously still a long way to go (Ellen DeGeneres' career almost came to an end after she came out as a lesbian), but it's clear that a lot of social progress had been made over time and that attitudes towards minority groups were more on the "accepting" side of things. Here are a few examples of how forward-thinking the '90s were: {Spoiler}
This is from 1995. The manner in which the episode approaches the theme of cross-dressing seems pretty progressive to me. Even though the theme of it isn't exactly "in your face", the episode quite clearly makes the other guy in the laundromat appear as the "bad guy" and it even shows Mr Bean getting his revenge by swapping the coffee with the detergent. Also, Mr Bean wears the skirt for the rest of the episode, which is pretty noteworthy as he had no issue with taking off his pants/underwear in public earlier in the episode and he easily could have done the same thing with the skirt.
"Homer's Phobia" is a Simpsons episode from 1997 which is based on Homer's fear that his new friend's homosexuality will have a negative influence on Bart, but by the end of it, Homer comes to accept his friend's homosexuality and tells Bart that he will support him no matter how he chooses to live his life. When the episode first went to air in 1997, it received an overwhelmingly positive response from viewers and critics. The episode does a good job at depicting how outdated and backwards Homer's homophobia is.
The Cure is a 1995 drama film about a 13 year old boy who befriends an 11 year old who has contracted AIDS and the two of them go on a journey together to try and find a cure for it. It also paints the mother of the 13 year old in a bad light (she has a prejudice against AIDS) by depicting her as an emotionally and physically abusive mother. It's quite evident that there had been a significant shift in the general perceptions towards the LGBTI community and people from other minority backgrounds in comparison to what they were like twenty years earlier, when LGBTI people were still regularly stigmatised and even arrested by police in some areas/countries.
The Spice Girls had a great influence on gender equality due to their female empowerment anthems and their placing as one of the biggest names in the pop cultural sphere. They were the group responsible for entering "girl power" into the public consciousness.
I would argue that the 2000s were more socially progressive when it came to the greater recognition and acceptance of climate change, but in other areas, it actually feels more backward. I happened to catch an episode of "Desperate Housewives" while I was flicking through the channels the other day and even though the episode came out in 2007, it depicted the gay couple in the episode in quite a negative light (they built a water fountain in their front yard and arrogantly refused to take it down). One of the main characters introduced herself to them and then awkwardly tried to voice her approval of gay rights, even though the show made out that it wasn't how she really felt. It kind of took me by surprise that attitudes were still that bad even as late as 2007. As a decade, I would say that the '90s have more of an "open" and "embracing" cultural identity. I'm not sure if I would use those same terms to describe the cultural 2000s. For instance, the early 2000s in particular were defined by a sense of toxic masculinity due to nu-metal being at it's peak and bubblegum-pop also being on the charts, which only encouraged those attitudes of machoism as a form of backlash. That isn't taking into account the "pre-political correctness" and casual homophobic attitudes that were still prevalent throughout the entire decade. Of course, all this isn't to suggest that the '90s weren't without their problems as well, and there was still a long way to go in terms of achieving equality for minority groups. However, as an overall decade, I am personally of the belief that the '90s were generally more progressive than the 2000s. What are your thoughts on this? Yes I would generally agree, I was old enough to have lived through a good portion of the 90s as preteen and teen and also schooling (HS, University) from the early to mid 00s . I also went through the different styles, grunge/goth/punk etc and lived across North America and elsewhere so I have a sense of it. The 90s were definitely more progressive but the 2000s did offer something. To sum it up there was a hedonistic, mature, nihilistic and individualistic and liberal spirit that lasted in 1998-1999 to some degree (even though things were just starting to change a bit earlier) that allowed you to be yourself no matter what it was. There were so many styles to choose from, whereas the 2000s had more of monoculture feeling, you were either part of the in crowd or out. The 90s feminist movement was more authentic and rational than 2010s movement and had more presence than the 2000s era, and well even had influence on groups like the spice girls.Homophobia existed but people had a generally open and liberal approacjh or understanding compared to the 2000s, even though there was still some stigma related to AIDS and few more religious people compared today. Slurs weren't used in the same way and nowhere near as frequently to belittle others, you could be openly gay, depending where you lived, or come to school in make up or crazy raver or gothic clothing as male and get away with it, which was not as tolerated in the 2000s. There was some racism but it was deeply frowned upon to be racist and there a lot of emphasis on racial inequalities and minority struggles and people were careful with a lot of emphasis with pc language, and content censorship in music and films etc In the early 2000s, even things like having long hair, not belonging to any particular group or social clique or having a name that sounded too eastern european or french etc would result in heavy preconceived judgments or some cases bullying or rejection. Even among people older then 15 or 16. It depends where you lived but many people have felt the same in varying degrees but it wasn't as extreme as you'd think at the same time. The sexism and homophobia was pretty strong in 2000/2001. People forget how sexist it was, but it was there. A lot of the hip hop culture from that era that blended into the pop mainstream at the time and normalized it to some extent. Also, I see the homophobia not just related to affecting LGBT people but everyone, males especially. You also had xenophobia after 9/11 and the blind support of foreign wars. There was a lot of acceptance of casual racism towards foreigners (mexicans, arabs) , to some extent african americans and minorities in general. Also if you were white you could automatically be assumed to of a particular ethnicity or supportive of bush or an evil colonizer etc of course to a less extent and depending where you lived. Also around that time people were very suspicious to assume anyone who looked different was a potential school shooter, a devil worshiper etc Most of this didn't exist even in the late 90s and very early Y2K era. In the early to mid 00s (2002-2004) you start seeing some minor changes such as bit less uptight sexuality among females, more normalization of bisexuality among females, guys with more acceptable gothy/grungy looks becoming just a bit more tolerated, and the beginnings of criticizing and questioning the current regime and social topics of the day (micheal more docs comes to mind) I think the mid 00s (late 2004-2007) in some cases was the same or sometimes an exaggerated version of conservatism of late Y2K/Early 2000s era but on the otherhand you did notice a more defined leftist activist culture against the war in iraq, more awareness of the global warming, more awareness of unhealthy food and social issues. Also you see more of a tolerance of alternative subcultural style and much wider adoption and mainstreamization of emo and more exposure to metal/hard rock, outside of the pop oriented nu metal and mall rock of earlier years, making it easier for people to look or act differently without higher risk of persecution like earlier. Also in the late 00s you started to much bigger steps towards racial inequality and social acceptance with the election of obama and some more serious steps towards the social activism, LGBT and woman's rights movements which peaked in the early to mid 2010s. So yes 90s were better, but 2000s did offer something as well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 0:16:01 GMT 10
I'd say the 90s were better in almost every way. I'd probably be a billionaire now had I been born ten years earlier and came of age in the 90s. I know at least I'd be doing better than I am right now. I would have loved to get in on the tech boom and actually experience a booming economy.
As far as homophobia and toxic masculinity in the 90s compared to the 00s, it's really hard to say. The 90s were a better decade for counterculture movements in general than the 00s were. However, let's not forget that the 90s were the decade that gave us Newt Gingrich. One of the biggest reasons Bill Clinton was so hated was his support for gays in the military. I'd say overall though it was probably easier to find your niche in the 90s, especially from 1995 through around 1999. Sometime around 2000 we shifted into a much more conformist culture.
To me, this coincided with the shift in youth culture from GenX to Millennials. Seemingly overnight, we went from trench coats, long black hair, and painted black nails to caesar cuts, frosted tips, and Abercrombie and Fitch. I think early Millennial culture in the 2000s was far more conservative and didn't become more liberal until the mid to late 2000s. I also wonder how much the Columbine school shooting impacted this change. A lot of schools implemented dress codes that banned a lot of the goth trends after that.
Bush in a lot of ways was a more competent, less treasonous Trump (though I think that could be argued considering the war that Bush started). Still, the country ran much smoother under Bush than it has under Trump. That said, the primary reason Bush was elected and was so popular was a backlash against 90s liberalism. The central issues for the 2004 election was not Iraq or the economy but same-sex marriage and abortion. Bush was primarily defended by the fundamentalist Christian establishment in this country as a protector of Judeo-Christian values.
It's hard to believe its 2020 and we are still fighting this fight. In the mid 2010s, it really felt like the page was turning.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 2:06:45 GMT 10
Ughh I was going to write a long post but was hit with a page refresh To summarize what I was going to write I think the 2000s were conservative in the US, but not so much in Canada. We legalized gay marriage in the 2000s whereas in the 1990s the government used to send spies to rat out gay people and fire them. People had the opposite response to 9/11 here. People became very anti-war, anti-American, pro-immigration. We were not fans of George Bush here at all. In the early-mid 1990s Canada was still pretty racist to hear it from my older cousins. White people would not caught dead being friends with an Asian (not many black people in Canada back then). By the 2000s that had reversed at least for East Asians, anime and Japanese pop culture hit the mainstream and became cool and K-Pop followed on its coattails in the late 2000s. Majority of people in the US opposed interracial marriage in the early 1990s too, a thought process I thought would've died in the early 1960s. Things improved a lot following the 1992 LA riots and election of Bill Clinton. The 2000s were better for race relations imo especially with the election of Obama in 2008 and mainstreaming of black musicians. Anyway if I have time I'll try to rewrite the post, I had charts and citations and even talked a bit about the UK lmao.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 2:57:30 GMT 10
I'd say the 90s were better in almost every way. I'd probably be a billionaire now had I been born ten years earlier and came of age in the 90s. I know at least I'd be doing better than I am right now. I would have loved to get in on the tech boom and actually experience a booming economy. As far as homophobia and toxic masculinity in the 90s compared to the 00s, it's really hard to say. The 90s were a better decade for counterculture movements in general than the 00s were. However, let's not forget that the 90s were the decade that gave us Newt Gingrich. One of the biggest reasons Bill Clinton was so hated was his support for gays in the military. I'd say overall though it was probably easier to find your niche in the 90s, especially from 1995 through around 1999. Sometime around 2000 we shifted into a much more conformist culture. To me, this coincided with the shift in youth culture from GenX to Millennials. Seemingly overnight, we went from trench coats, long black hair, and painted black nails to caesar cuts, frosted tips, and Abercrombie and Fitch. I think early Millennial culture in the 2000s was far more conservative and didn't become more liberal until the mid to late 2000s. I also wonder how much the Columbine school shooting impacted this change. A lot of schools implemented dress codes that banned a lot of the goth trends after that. Bush in a lot of ways was a more competent, less treasonous Trump (though I think that could be argued considering the war that Bush started). Still, the country ran much smoother under Bush than it has under Trump. That said, the primary reason Bush was elected and was so popular was a backlash against 90s liberalism. The central issues for the 2004 election was not Iraq or the economy but same-sex marriage and abortion. Bush was primarily defended by the fundamentalist Christian establishment in this country as a protector of Judeo-Christian values. It's hard to believe its 2020 and we are still fighting this fight. In the mid 2010s, it really felt like the page was turning. I remember the media coverage about this. Gay marriage was up there with abortion as the most important issue for Republicans, and a lot of red states clamped down hard on gay rights in the mid-2000s. I think it created a negative reaction here in Canada, and like with a lot of things our politicians seized the opportunity to do the opposite thing m here (legalizing gay marriage in 2005)
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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 16, 2020 10:00:27 GMT 10
To sum it up there was a hedonistic, mature, nihilistic and individualistic and liberal spirit that lasted in 1998-1999 to some degree (even though things were just starting to change a bit earlier) that allowed you to be yourself no matter what it was. There were so many styles to choose from, whereas the 2000s had more of monoculture feeling, you were either part of the in crowd or out. The 90s feminist movement was more authentic and rational than 2010s movement and had more presence than the 2000s era, and well even had influence on groups like the spice girls.Homophobia existed but people had a generally open and liberal approacjh or understanding compared to the 2000s, even though there was still some stigma related to AIDS and few more religious people compared today. Slurs weren't used in the same way and nowhere near as frequently to belittle others, you could be openly gay, depending where you lived, or come to school in make up or crazy raver or gothic clothing as male and get away with it, which was not as tolerated in the 2000s. There was some racism but it was deeply frowned upon to be racist and there a lot of emphasis on racial inequalities and minority struggles and people were careful with a lot of emphasis with pc language, and content censorship in music and films etc I agree. I'm not sure if you've seen it or not, but there's an episode of "Seinfeld" from 1993 called "The Outing" which I feel represents the attitudes towards the gay community during the '90s quite well. Jerry and George are mistaken for being a same-sex couple by a reporter and in their desperate efforts to deny being homosexual, they back it up by saying "not that there's anything wrong with that". It shows that there was an increasing level of acceptance towards being apart of the LGBTQ+ community, but it was obviously still a point of contention. Re: clothing trends during the mid-late '90s; I've actually got a book that was filled out by my parents just days after I was born and there's a section in the book which asks what the latest trends were at that time. For clothing, my Dad wrote that "anything goes". I definitely agree that there was a free-spirted attitude towards wearing whatever you feel like during the '90s, especially during the second-half of the decade. I can remember watching an episode of "Cold Case" which was set at an American high school in 1998. All of the teens had their own unique style, some were dressed goth, others sported baggier clothing, while others still wore flannelette shirts. The 2000s were the exact opposite of that for the most part. In terms of clothing styles and what was considered "acceptable", it was even a conformist time for kids. I can remember constantly getting pressured by my Mum and hairdresser whenever I got a haircut to get my hair spiked with gel because all of the other boys were doing it. Everyone wore loose-fitting jeans or "Bad Boy", "Pipping Hot"-made t-shirts. Ughh I was going to write a long post but was hit with a page refresh To summarize what I was going to write I think the 2000s were conservative in the US, but not so much in Canada. We legalized gay marriage in the 2000s whereas in the 1990s the government used to send spies to rat out gay people and fire them. People had the opposite response to 9/11 here. People became very anti-war, anti-American, pro-immigration. We were not fans of George Bush here at all. In the early-mid 1990s Canada was still pretty racist to hear it from my older cousins. White people would not caught dead being friends with an Asian (not many black people in Canada back then). By the 2000s that had reversed at least for East Asians, anime and Japanese pop culture hit the mainstream and became cool and K-Pop followed on its coattails in the late 2000s. Majority of people in the US opposed interracial marriage in the early 1990s too, a thought process I thought would've died in the early 1960s. Things improved a lot following the 1992 LA riots and election of Bill Clinton. The 2000s were better for race relations imo especially with the election of Obama in 2008 and mainstreaming of black musicians. Anyway if I have time I'll try to rewrite the post, I had charts and citations and even talked a bit about the UK lmao. That's interesting, I wouldn't have expected Canada to have been so different in that regard. Would you say that attitudes were already heading in a more progressive direction in Canada before the September 11 Attacks or do you believe the country's response to them was the true catalyst for change? I agree that race relations, as well as the greater recognition of climate change, are the two subject matters which the 2000s had the edge over the '90s.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 11:03:11 GMT 10
I agree with everyone who has posted so far. It makes sense. I believe the 1990s were liberal cuz Bill Clinton was a democrat in office throughout most of the 1990s from 1993-until extremely early 2001. I believe the 2000s were conservative because Bill Clinton received a bad image cuz of the sex scandals with Monika Lewinsky around 1998-1999 & Bush, a republican, got elected in very late 2000, which was a response & backlash 2 & against the 1990s liberal culture. I believe that the 1990s were dying as early as 1998-1999 with Bill Clinton's bad image, impeachment trials, Y2K bug, Columbine shooting, etc. The death of the 1990s escalated throughout 2000-2001 with the stock market crash, release of PS2, Bush getting elected & inaugurated, recession. The 1990s were dead & buried by Tuesday, September 11, 2001. 1990s seemed more easygoing, diverse, peaceful & tolerant compared 2 the 1980s & 2000s. The 2000s were backwards, conformist & conservative, return 2 the 1980s. Every kid in elementary school were romanticizing the 1980s. I was in elementary school from Tuesday, September 10, 2002-June 2010, remember getting bullied & seeing others get bullied 4 minor things such as the way someone talks, walks, acts, sounds, looks, etc. Elementary school sucked in the 2000s. I'm glad & lucky that I wasn't in middle or high school in the 2000s. I heard that punching guys in their dicks was a trend in high school during the 2000s. I'd rather turn 22 years old over turning 2 or 12 years old in 2000.
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Post by aja675 on Dec 16, 2020 14:02:13 GMT 10
I've been wanting to create this topic for a while, but I just hadn't got around to doing so. The 1990s are an interesting decade to look back on. This may just be a result of my age and being too young to have any personal recollections of what the '90s were actually like, but to me, they have always given me the impression that they were a much more socially progressive time than what the 2000s were (especially the early-mid '00s). The decade saw the rise of alternative media (eg. grunge), multiculturalism, the third-wave of feminism, the open acceptance of individuality and staying true to one's self, as well as the gradual improvement in LGBTQ+ rights. The WHO removed homosexuality off it's list of diseases in 1990 and homosexual acts were completely decriminalized in the Western world. It was also noticeably progressive in other areas too. The breakthrough of alternative-rock in late 1991 resulted in topics such as depression, suicide and self-harm becoming less taboo. Whereas previous incarnations of rock had mostly focused on sex, partying and generally having a good time, the emergence of alt-rock in the mainstream changed all that and suddenly it became okay to talk about your feelings and express your inner-most feelings of sadness. The face of the subculture, Kurt Cobain, regularly campaigned for women's rights and asked all-female bands to co-headline a show with Nirvana. There was obviously still a long way to go (Ellen DeGeneres' career almost came to an end after she came out as a lesbian), but it's clear that a lot of social progress had been made over time and that attitudes towards minority groups were more on the "accepting" side of things. Here are a few examples of how forward-thinking the '90s were: {Spoiler}
This is from 1995. The manner in which the episode approaches the theme of cross-dressing seems pretty progressive to me. Even though the theme of it isn't exactly "in your face", the episode quite clearly makes the other guy in the laundromat appear as the "bad guy" and it even shows Mr Bean getting his revenge by swapping the coffee with the detergent. Also, Mr Bean wears the skirt for the rest of the episode, which is pretty noteworthy as he had no issue with taking off his pants/underwear in public earlier in the episode and he easily could have done the same thing with the skirt.
"Homer's Phobia" is a Simpsons episode from 1997 which is based on Homer's fear that his new friend's homosexuality will have a negative influence on Bart, but by the end of it, Homer comes to accept his friend's homosexuality and tells Bart that he will support him no matter how he chooses to live his life. When the episode first went to air in 1997, it received an overwhelmingly positive response from viewers and critics. The episode does a good job at depicting how outdated and backwards Homer's homophobia is.
The Cure is a 1995 drama film about a 13 year old boy who befriends an 11 year old who has contracted AIDS and the two of them go on a journey together to try and find a cure for it. It also paints the mother of the 13 year old in a bad light (she has a prejudice against AIDS) by depicting her as an emotionally and physically abusive mother. It's quite evident that there had been a significant shift in the general perceptions towards the LGBTI community and people from other minority backgrounds in comparison to what they were like twenty years earlier, when LGBTI people were still regularly stigmatised and even arrested by police in some areas/countries.
The Spice Girls had a great influence on gender equality due to their female empowerment anthems and their placing as one of the biggest names in the pop cultural sphere. They were the group responsible for entering "girl power" into the public consciousness.
I would argue that the 2000s were more socially progressive when it came to the greater recognition and acceptance of climate change, but in other areas, it actually feels more backward. I happened to catch an episode of "Desperate Housewives" while I was flicking through the channels the other day and even though the episode came out in 2007, it depicted the gay couple in the episode in quite a negative light (they built a water fountain in their front yard and arrogantly refused to take it down). One of the main characters introduced herself to them and then awkwardly tried to voice her approval of gay rights, even though the show made out that it wasn't how she really felt. It kind of took me by surprise that attitudes were still that bad even as late as 2007. As a decade, I would say that the '90s have more of an "open" and "embracing" cultural identity. I'm not sure if I would use those same terms to describe the cultural 2000s. For instance, the early 2000s in particular were defined by a sense of toxic masculinity due to nu-metal being at it's peak and bubblegum-pop also being on the charts, which only encouraged those attitudes of machoism as a form of backlash. That isn't taking into account the "pre-political correctness" and casual homophobic attitudes that were still prevalent throughout the entire decade. Of course, all this isn't to suggest that the '90s weren't without their problems as well, and there was still a long way to go in terms of achieving equality for minority groups. However, as an overall decade, I am personally of the belief that the '90s were generally more progressive than the 2000s. What are your thoughts on this? In the early 2000s, even things like having long hair, not belonging to any particular group or social clique or having a name that sounded too eastern european or french etc would result in heavy preconceived judgments or some cases bullying or rejection. Even among people older then 15 or 16. It depends where you lived but many people have felt the same in varying degrees but it wasn't as extreme as you'd think at the same time. Coming from somewhere where attitudes are approximately 8 years behind (at least my own social milieu of middle-class people is, IDK about how many years behind the slums and provinces are because I only know them from a distance), let me just say that people here were still that backward even in like 2014 or 2015. Even among 18-25 year olds.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 14:19:45 GMT 10
To sum it up there was a hedonistic, mature, nihilistic and individualistic and liberal spirit that lasted in 1998-1999 to some degree (even though things were just starting to change a bit earlier) that allowed you to be yourself no matter what it was. There were so many styles to choose from, whereas the 2000s had more of monoculture feeling, you were either part of the in crowd or out. The 90s feminist movement was more authentic and rational than 2010s movement and had more presence than the 2000s era, and well even had influence on groups like the spice girls.Homophobia existed but people had a generally open and liberal approacjh or understanding compared to the 2000s, even though there was still some stigma related to AIDS and few more religious people compared today. Slurs weren't used in the same way and nowhere near as frequently to belittle others, you could be openly gay, depending where you lived, or come to school in make up or crazy raver or gothic clothing as male and get away with it, which was not as tolerated in the 2000s. There was some racism but it was deeply frowned upon to be racist and there a lot of emphasis on racial inequalities and minority struggles and people were careful with a lot of emphasis with pc language, and content censorship in music and films etc I agree. I'm not sure if you've seen it or not, but there's an episode of "Seinfeld" from 1993 called "The Outing" which I feel represents the attitudes towards the gay community during the '90s quite well. Jerry and George are mistaken for being a same-sex couple by a reporter and in their desperate efforts to deny being homosexual, they back it up by saying "not that there's anything wrong with that". It shows that there was an increasing level of acceptance towards being apart of the LGBTQ+ community, but it was obviously still a point of contention. Re: clothing trends during the mid-late '90s; I've actually got a book that was filled out by my parents just days after I was born and there's a section in the book which asks what the latest trends were at that time. For clothing, my Dad wrote that "anything goes". I definitely agree that there was a free-spirted attitude towards wearing whatever you feel like during the '90s, especially during the second-half of the decade. I can remember watching an episode of "Cold Case" which was set at an American high school in 1998. All of the teens had their own unique style, some were dressed goth, others sported baggier clothing, while others still wore flannelette shirts. The 2000s were the exact opposite of that for the most part. In terms of clothing styles and what was considered "acceptable", it was even a conformist time for kids. I can remember constantly getting pressured by my Mum and hairdresser whenever I got a haircut to get my hair spiked with gel because all of the other boys were doing it. Everyone wore loose-fitting jeans or "Bad Boy", "Pipping Hot"-made t-shirts. Ughh I was going to write a long post but was hit with a page refresh To summarize what I was going to write I think the 2000s were conservative in the US, but not so much in Canada. We legalized gay marriage in the 2000s whereas in the 1990s the government used to send spies to rat out gay people and fire them. People had the opposite response to 9/11 here. People became very anti-war, anti-American, pro-immigration. We were not fans of George Bush here at all. In the early-mid 1990s Canada was still pretty racist to hear it from my older cousins. White people would not caught dead being friends with an Asian (not many black people in Canada back then). By the 2000s that had reversed at least for East Asians, anime and Japanese pop culture hit the mainstream and became cool and K-Pop followed on its coattails in the late 2000s. Majority of people in the US opposed interracial marriage in the early 1990s too, a thought process I thought would've died in the early 1960s. Things improved a lot following the 1992 LA riots and election of Bill Clinton. The 2000s were better for race relations imo especially with the election of Obama in 2008 and mainstreaming of black musicians. Anyway if I have time I'll try to rewrite the post, I had charts and citations and even talked a bit about the UK lmao. That's interesting, I wouldn't have expected Canada to have been so different in that regard. Would you say that attitudes were already heading in a more progressive direction in Canada before the September 11 Attacks or do you believe the country's response to them was the true catalyst for change? I agree that race relations, as well as the greater recognition of climate change, are the two subject matters which the 2000s had the edge over the '90s. To be honest, I can't think of a time in my life where Canada wasn't moving in a more progressive direction. But there definitely was a distinct liberal anti-American backlash after the Iraq War got underway that kicked things into overdrive. This was the chart I was going to cite, about whether Canadians support immigration. environicsresearch.com/insights/canadians-become-open-immigrants-refugees-past-year-according-environics-institute-study/As you can see attitudes became more progressive in the late 1990s. The majority of the 1990s were quite xenophobic, but that started to change as Y2K approached. This was in large part due to the 1995 Quebec independence referendum, which Canada only won by 50.5% of the vote. Immigrants who were very anti-separatist tipped things in Canada's favour. I also attribute it to global trends at the time, namely, globalism– the same effect was observed in the UK in 1997 with the election of Tony Blair. You can see the 2003-2008 spike in support as well. That was the anti-Iraq War backlash I was speaking of. Things came back down to earth so to speak after the recession (fascinatingly, 2020 looks to be a start of a new era itself thanks to the global BLM protests). I tried to find public opinion polls for same-sex marriage, but only came across this in the Wikipedia article: Using support of gay marriage as a barometer, it looks like there might've been a short-lived Y2K era period of liberalism, but it's only one data point so it's hard to say. What I can say with certainty though is that things did improve significantly in the late 2000s after it was legalized. news.gallup.com/poll/163697/approve-marriage-blacks-whites.aspxThis one is for the US and support of interracial marriage. I've always found it shocking how the majority could've been against/skeptical of it up until 1997. news.gallup.com/poll/257705/support-gay-marriage-stable.aspxI don't have to much to say about US gay acceptance. @bchris02 has said what I would say, the 2000s weren't a good decade to be gay in the US until maybe towards the very very end, but that's for the 2010s. edit: I found one for US views on immigration. This one is pretty hard to read, but it's the same trend as Canada/UK of high anti-immigration sentiment in the early-mid 1990s followed by progression in the late 1990s. Unlike Canada though, the US became more anti-immigrant in the 2000s. news.gallup.com/poll/313106/americans-not-less-immigration-first-time.aspx
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2020 15:07:24 GMT 10
I heard that punching guys in their dicks was a trend in high school during the 2000s. I have never witnessed that. I remember a pinching nipples trend at my school at least. One kid had to go to the ER because someone punched a stapler in his nipples. But I don't know about punching someone in the gonads. That would've been... a dick move.
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Post by slashpop on Dec 16, 2020 22:33:56 GMT 10
To sum it up there was a hedonistic, mature, nihilistic and individualistic and liberal spirit that lasted in 1998-1999 to some degree (even though things were just starting to change a bit earlier) that allowed you to be yourself no matter what it was. There were so many styles to choose from, whereas the 2000s had more of monoculture feeling, you were either part of the in crowd or out. The 90s feminist movement was more authentic and rational than 2010s movement and had more presence than the 2000s era, and well even had influence on groups like the spice girls.Homophobia existed but people had a generally open and liberal approacjh or understanding compared to the 2000s, even though there was still some stigma related to AIDS and few more religious people compared today. Slurs weren't used in the same way and nowhere near as frequently to belittle others, you could be openly gay, depending where you lived, or come to school in make up or crazy raver or gothic clothing as male and get away with it, which was not as tolerated in the 2000s. There was some racism but it was deeply frowned upon to be racist and there a lot of emphasis on racial inequalities and minority struggles and people were careful with a lot of emphasis with pc language, and content censorship in music and films etc I agree. I'm not sure if you've seen it or not, but there's an episode of "Seinfeld" from 1993 called "The Outing" which I feel represents the attitudes towards the gay community during the '90s quite well. Jerry and George are mistaken for being a same-sex couple by a reporter and in their desperate efforts to deny being homosexual, they back it up by saying "not that there's anything wrong with that". It shows that there was an increasing level of acceptance towards being apart of the LGBTQ+ community, but it was obviously still a point of contention. Re: clothing trends during the mid-late '90s; I've actually got a book that was filled out by my parents just days after I was born and there's a section in the book which asks what the latest trends were at that time. For clothing, my Dad wrote that "anything goes". I definitely agree that there was a free-spirted attitude towards wearing whatever you feel like during the '90s, especially during the second-half of the decade. I can remember watching an episode of "Cold Case" which was set at an American high school in 1998. All of the teens had their own unique style, some were dressed goth, others sported baggier clothing, while others still wore flannelette shirts. The 2000s were the exact opposite of that for the most part. In terms of clothing styles and what was considered "acceptable", it was even a conformist time for kids. I can remember constantly getting pressured by my Mum and hairdresser whenever I got a haircut to get my hair spiked with gel because all of the other boys were doing it. Everyone wore loose-fitting jeans or "Bad Boy", "Pipping Hot"-made t-shirts. Ughh I was going to write a long post but was hit with a page refresh To summarize what I was going to write I think the 2000s were conservative in the US, but not so much in Canada. We legalized gay marriage in the 2000s whereas in the 1990s the government used to send spies to rat out gay people and fire them. People had the opposite response to 9/11 here. People became very anti-war, anti-American, pro-immigration. We were not fans of George Bush here at all. In the early-mid 1990s Canada was still pretty racist to hear it from my older cousins. White people would not caught dead being friends with an Asian (not many black people in Canada back then). By the 2000s that had reversed at least for East Asians, anime and Japanese pop culture hit the mainstream and became cool and K-Pop followed on its coattails in the late 2000s. Majority of people in the US opposed interracial marriage in the early 1990s too, a thought process I thought would've died in the early 1960s. Things improved a lot following the 1992 LA riots and election of Bill Clinton. The 2000s were better for race relations imo especially with the election of Obama in 2008 and mainstreaming of black musicians. Anyway if I have time I'll try to rewrite the post, I had charts and citations and even talked a bit about the UK lmao. That's interesting, I wouldn't have expected Canada to have been so different in that regard. Would you say that attitudes were already heading in a more progressive direction in Canada before the September 11 Attacks or do you believe the country's response to them was the true catalyst for change? I agree that race relations, as well as the greater recognition of climate change, are the two subject matters which the 2000s had the edge over the '90s. Yeah I have watched the Seinfield episode. There was a different and more easy going approach to social topics back then in a way, even if there was some degree of conservatism still hanging and influences coming from religion, corporate media and older more traditional baby boomer values. I think slowpoke helped illustrate this in Canada with some charts, I lived there but moved around back and forth between the US/Canada and abroad as well, Canada definitely was/is more open minded and easy going in regards to certain issues, and a bit different in certain aspects but a lot of things were almost nearly identical around the same time. In comparison to the 90s, I remember more heated debates over certain social subjects like abortion, overseas wars, censorship, sexuality in the 2000s. There was a generalized youth oriented urban liberalism in the 90s that gradually slowly faded in the 2000s and then slowly picked back up in the latter part of the 2000s and into the 2010s. Yeah it was a diverse time, the inn crowd mentality of course existed in the 90s but it wasn't trying necessarily trying to overule or dismiss all the other groups in the same manner like in many years of 2000s and to some extent decades like the 1980s or the 1950s. I would argue that the conformity was slightly a bit more, but not much, in the very early 90s, but I was a kid I didn't have any issues with this. Also in parts of the 2000s (2004 or 2008 for example) the mentality was slightly more laid back or open compared to other years, I also wouldn't paint every 2000s year with the same brushstroke.
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Post by jaydawg89 on Dec 17, 2020 1:04:27 GMT 10
In the US, the 90s were overall more proggressive, with the exception of race, the 2000s were definitely better in that regard. Don't get me wrong, the 90s were definitely not bad for racism and our attitudes towards race in the 90s was already a lot more like today than say the 70s but, the 2000s were a bit better in this regard.
The 90s were definitely less conformist and there was a much more individualistic attitude. Being different in the 2000s was looked down upon and you could be bullied if you were different and not conforming to what was "cool". People were also a lot more materialistic in the 00s compared to the early-mid 90s too.
When it comes to homophobia, it was worse in the early-mid 2000s than the 90s (atleast in the US). On the otherhand, the 90s are more homophobic compared to the 2010s/now though.
In the 00s, there was a republican president, conservative talk shows/news shows had more popularity compared to the 90s, Bill Clinton & the Democrat party were looked at differently after the Monica Lewinski scandal (I'm not actually quite sure about this one), 80s nostalgia was huge (starting in 2002), there was a backlash against the more liberal attitudes of the 90s. Patriotism was also a lot bigger as well (especially after 9/11), this caused sooooo much country music to be on the radio at the time (all of it pretty bad lol).
Despite my criticisms towards the 00s, there were things that the 00s did socially better. The crime rate in the 00s was much lower compared to the 90s, Crack & Aids weren't as much of a problem, the economy was actually better in the early-mid 00s (contrary to belief). Racism was also a bit better as stated.
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Post by slashpop on Dec 17, 2020 1:23:51 GMT 10
In the US, the 90s were overall more proggressive, with the exception of race, the 2000s were definitely better in that regard. Don't get me wrong, the 90s were definitely not bad for racism and our attitudes towards race in the 90s was already a lot more like today than say the 70s but, the 2000s were a bit better in this regard. The 90s were definitely less conformist and there was a much more individualistic attitude. Being different in the 2000s was looked down upon and you could be bullied if you were different and not conforming to what was "cool". People were also a lot more materialistic in the 00s compared to the early-mid 90s too. When it comes to homophobia, it was worse in the early-mid 2000s than the 90s (atleast in the US). On the otherhand, the 90s are more homophobic compared to the 2010s/now though. In the 00s, there was a republican president, conservative talk shows/news shows had more popularity compared to the 90s, Bill Clinton & the Democrat party were looked at differently after the Monica Lewinski scandal (I'm not actually quite sure about this one), 80s nostalgia was huge (starting in 2002), there was a backlash against the more liberal attitudes of the 90s. Patriotism was also a lot bigger as well (especially after 9/11), this caused sooooo much country music to be on the radio at the time (all of it pretty bad lol). I had lived in the US prior to moving to Canada, and moved to the US for some time in the early 2000s and throughout the decade, then back and forth etc. There are more commonalities and trivial or smaller differences in my experience in Toronto, Canada, even things like political or cultural effects which someone may think are completely exclusive to US, are adopted or influenced in the same or similar way around the same time, almost like just another U.S state most of the time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 2:32:21 GMT 10
In the US, the 90s were overall more proggressive, with the exception of race, the 2000s were definitely better in that regard. Don't get me wrong, the 90s were definitely not bad for racism and our attitudes towards race in the 90s was already a lot more like today than say the 70s but, the 2000s were a bit better in this regard. The 90s were definitely less conformist and there was a much more individualistic attitude. Being different in the 2000s was looked down upon and you could be bullied if you were different and not conforming to what was "cool". People were also a lot more materialistic in the 00s compared to the early-mid 90s too. When it comes to homophobia, it was worse in the early-mid 2000s than the 90s (atleast in the US). On the otherhand, the 90s are more homophobic compared to the 2010s/now though. In the 00s, there was a republican president, conservative talk shows/news shows had more popularity compared to the 90s, Bill Clinton & the Democrat party were looked at differently after the Monica Lewinski scandal (I'm not actually quite sure about this one), 80s nostalgia was huge (starting in 2002), there was a backlash against the more liberal attitudes of the 90s. Patriotism was also a lot bigger as well (especially after 9/11), this caused sooooo much country music to be on the radio at the time (all of it pretty bad lol). I had lived in the US prior to moving to Canada, and moved to the US for some time in the early 2000s and throughout the decade, then back and forth etc. There are more commonalities and trivial or smaller differences in my experience in Toronto, Canada, even things like political or cultural effects which someone may think are completely exclusive to US, are adopted or influenced in the same or similar way around the same time, almost like just another U.S state most of the time. Yeah I know what you mean. For example I had never heard someone say "SJWs" in real life before, it seemed to be an online-only thing. If I heard someone say that in real life I would think they live on the Internet or have no life lol. But in 2017 after Trump was elected I started hearing it everywhere. American trends and ideas always bleed here eventually especially Anglophone Canada.
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Post by sman12 on Dec 17, 2020 9:59:02 GMT 10
I would say that the late '90s (1997-1999) were. You had Ellen DeGeneres coming out as gay in "The Puppy Episode" in 1997, the Matthew Shepard murder led to increased conversations about violence against LGBT people, and the popularity of Will & Grace. There are more examples, but those are the ones that I had on the top of my head.
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