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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 4:46:09 GMT 10
In the US, the 90s were overall more proggressive, with the exception of race, the 2000s were definitely better in that regard. Don't get me wrong, the 90s were definitely not bad for racism and our attitudes towards race in the 90s was already a lot more like today than say the 70s but, the 2000s were a bit better in this regard. The 90s were definitely less conformist and there was a much more individualistic attitude. Being different in the 2000s was looked down upon and you could be bullied if you were different and not conforming to what was "cool". People were also a lot more materialistic in the 00s compared to the early-mid 90s too. When it comes to homophobia, it was worse in the early-mid 2000s than the 90s (atleast in the US). On the otherhand, the 90s are more homophobic compared to the 2010s/now though. In the 00s, there was a republican president, conservative talk shows/news shows had more popularity compared to the 90s, Bill Clinton & the Democrat party were looked at differently after the Monica Lewinski scandal (I'm not actually quite sure about this one), 80s nostalgia was huge (starting in 2002), there was a backlash against the more liberal attitudes of the 90s. Patriotism was also a lot bigger as well (especially after 9/11), this caused sooooo much country music to be on the radio at the time (all of it pretty bad lol). Despite my criticisms towards the 00s, there were things that the 00s did socially better. The crime rate in the 00s was much lower compared to the 90s, Crack & Aids weren't as much of a problem, the economy was actually better in the early-mid 00s (contrary to belief). Racism was also a bit better as stated. This is definitely an accurate assessment. The Monica Lewinsky scandal was actually a turning point in our politics and nudged things a bit to the right. It gave the Christian Right some ammunition in their culture war. It's crazy that the same people that were up in arms about Bill Clinton having an affair with Monica Lewinsky will excuse everything Trump does. I really don't think things shifted hard to the right though until after 9/11. The same neofascist undercurrents that gave us Donald Trump also used the 9/11 attacks and the concept of patriotism as culture war weapons to divide the country. The 2000s economy did relatively well between around 2004 and 2007, arguably better at any point during the 2010s (though I think the '10s economy is going to be remembered fondly in comparison with the '20s).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 8:35:54 GMT 10
Guys, I think we need to remember any argument that the ‘90s were more progressive than the ‘00s has to come with the following big-ass asterisks:
1. In the US, it was still illegal to BE gay in private in the safety of your own home in certain US states until Lawrence v. Texas in 2003.
2. The year 1992 brought us Rodney King and the race riots due to shocking police brutality. The only reason it seems to be cropping up “again” in the last decade is because these incidents are more easily publicized thanks to smartphones and policy bodycams.
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Post by slashpop on Dec 18, 2020 9:07:54 GMT 10
Guys, I think we need to remember any argument that the ‘90s were more progressive than the ‘00s has to come with the following big-ass asterisks: 1. In the US, it was still illegal to BE gay in private in the safety of your own home in certain US states until Lawrence v. Texas in 2003. 2. The year 1992 brought us Rodney King and the race riots due to shocking police brutality. The only reason it seems to be cropping up “again” in the last decade is because these incidents are more easily publicized thanks to smartphones and policy bodycams. It’s hard to assess number 1, because there are a lot of ridiculous things that were and are still left to be illegal on paper till today from 50+ years ago that are rarely put into effect, it’s hard to know what state was doing what, wherever few remaining places were such laws were occasionally practiced. I’m guessing the southern ones or more religious areas possibly. It’s not a super interesting topic to get into tbh. I’m not exactly certain but I do know that these older anti sodomy laws in some cases, for the same acts, were equally applied to heterosexuals including other things like public display of affection and possibly even sex before marriage where there were still left as illegal on paper and occasionally used maybe even after 2003. Here’s one, sex before marriage ( heterosexual) just became legal this year in Virginia: www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2020-03-05/virginia-repeals-law-banning-sex-before-marriage%3fcontext=ampI think we are talking about general attitudes here overall.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 9:37:14 GMT 10
Guys, I think we need to remember any argument that the ‘90s were more progressive than the ‘00s has to come with the following big-ass asterisks: 1. In the US, it was still illegal to BE gay in private in the safety of your own home in certain US states until Lawrence v. Texas in 2003. 2. The year 1992 brought us Rodney King and the race riots due to shocking police brutality. The only reason it seems to be cropping up “again” in the last decade is because these incidents are more easily publicized thanks to smartphones and policy bodycams. It’s hard to assess number 1, because there are a lot of ridiculous things that were and are still left to be illegal on paper till today from 50+ years ago that are rarely put into effect, it’s hard to know what state was doing what, wherever few remaining places were such laws were occasionally practiced. I’m guessing the southern ones or more religious areas possibly. It’s not a super interesting topic to get into tbh. I’m not exactly certain but I do know that these older anti sodomy laws in some cases, for the same acts, were equally applied to heterosexuals including other things like public display of affection and possibly even sex before marriage where there were still left as illegal on paper and occasionally used maybe even after 2003. Here’s one, sex before marriage ( heterosexual) just became legal this year in Virginia: www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2020-03-05/virginia-repeals-law-banning-sex-before-marriage%3fcontext=ampI think we are talking about general attitudes here overall. All I’m going to say is Lawrence v Texas was the case caption used because it was a criminal court case at the local level. Lawrence was going to be thrown in prison.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Dec 18, 2020 19:58:29 GMT 10
Also in parts of the 2000s (2004 or 2008 for example) the mentality was slightly more laid back or open compared to other years, I also wouldn't paint every 2000s year with the same brushstroke. That's definitely true. I can remember 2008 feeling quite 'forward-thinking' as a result of the release of "WALL-E", Kevin Rudd's "Stolen Generation" apology speech, Earth Hour and Barack Obama's election victory. However, those pre-political correctness attitudes definitely still lingered into 2008 as well, people didn't just stop calling things "retarded" or "gay" overnight. Using support of gay marriage as a barometer, it looks like there might've been a short-lived Y2K era period of liberalism, but it's only one data point so it's hard to say. What I can say with certainty though is that things did improve significantly in the late 2000s after it was legalized. Thanks for sharing those graphs, they were interesting to check out. Could the increase in support during the Y2K-era partly have been as a result of the novelty of entering a new millennium? I mean, the idea does sound a bit far-fetched on face value and it's kind of ridiculous to think that a new year could significantly influence someone's viewpoint on a societal debate, but I wouldn't be surprised if the novelty of entering a new millennium left a lot of people feeling the need to "start afresh" and leaving the 'old ways of thinking' behind in the 20th Century. I'm sure many would have had the 'out with the old, in with the new' mentality as the new millennium approached. Also, the pop culture of the time did line itself well for an increase in support of LGBTQ+ equality, what with "bright and bubbly" genres like teen-pop and bubblegum-pop being on the charts. Now you've got me curious to know how public opinion polls in regards to same-sex marriage have changed in Australia over time. Unfortunately, I have only been able to find data that goes back to 2004; even the Wikipedia article doesn't have any information in regards to what public opinion was like in Australia prior to then. Australia was definitely more conservative than Canada during the mid 2000s, although not as much as the United States. In 2004, our government actually imposed laws that prevented same-sex marriages from being performed or recognised in Australia, so it's interesting how perceptions and policies ended up changing in such a relatively short amount of time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 21:52:09 GMT 10
Oh yeah, you actually bring up an excellent point. President Bill Clinton, a Democrat, ratified the Defense of Marriage Act (1996), enabling US states to ban same-sex marriage: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_ActNot adjudged unconstitutional until 2013. I remember sitting in a law school class lecture as the opinion invalidating the law was handed down.
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Post by slashpop on Dec 20, 2020 23:33:08 GMT 10
Also in parts of the 2000s (2004 or 2008 for example) the mentality was slightly more laid back or open compared to other years, I also wouldn't paint every 2000s year with the same brushstroke. That's definitely true. I can remember 2008 feeling quite 'forward-thinking' as a result of the release of "WALL-E", Kevin Rudd's "Stolen Generation" apology speech, Earth Hour and Barack Obama's election victory. However, those pre-political correctness attitudes definitely still lingered into 2008 as well, people didn't just stop calling things "retarded" or "gay" overnight. Yeah I remember 2004 in general having a bit more of laid back and open minded attitude compared to earlier years like 2001. You started to feel much more vocal support against bush and the mentality behind supporting him, huge documentaries like Fahrenheit 9/11 helped, they were things everyone watched, it was a trend to be critical of the government, even if sometimes cliche or annoying, and to be supportive or aware of humanitarian topics or green causes regarding what was happening around the world. There was a growing liberal spirit, compared to earlier year, even if it wasn't there yet. Also around this time, before emo, and a bit earlier is when you start seeing slightly more diverse rock (revival post punk and others genres expanding more) you start seeing more people with fashion like long shaggy hair, long hair, guys with eyeliner, more traditional rocker looks. This is opposed to the short hair spiky hair and baggy trousers look from earlier, which can be interpreted to be more compatible with conservative values.I think this, to some extent, allowed the mid 2000s emo to expand and influence as much as it did.
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Post by y2kbaby on Feb 26, 2021 9:18:39 GMT 10
I do see the 1990s somewhat as a netural decade. The 2000s (save for the 2008-2009) was a conserative time period. As much as I love the early 2000s, I can see why not a lot of people don't love it as much. The 2000s mainly the early 2000s was such a judgemental time. S#ut-Shaming was everywhere. From Britney to X-Tina, JLO, Beyonce, Janet, Paris, etc.. Not saying that S#ut Shamming don't exist anymore, it's not as bad as the early 00s. Diane Sawyer of ABC News did a interview with Britney Spears in 2003. Where she was basically making Britney feel like crap because she was not only confident in herself but also her sexuality. Kept talking about her sex life, Diane made Britney cried in front of national TV. Nowadays, if a interviewer did that, they will get a lot of backlash. I found a video that talked about this.
There's this show called America's Next Top Model with Tyra Banks. The show premiered in 2003 and it had a lot problematic crap during the show. You would not believe how some part even got approval. This was mainly the 2000s some of the 2010s.
The Dixie Chicks was banned because the frontwoman Natalie Maines had a distaste for President Bush Jr and his administration/Iraq War. Ahead of its time if you ask me.
Last but not least, the excessive amount of homophobia in the early 00s. I could not imagined coming out during that time without getting your life threatened. Watching some of the movies and shows of that period seem like the sign of the time. I watched the O.C last year where one of the characters finds out that their father was on the DL. The kids made fun of him at his school because of that. And last night, I watched Degrassi: The Next Generation Season 3 where the character named Marco came out as gay. Everybody was either disappointing in him or angry at him for coming out, Marco got attacked by a group of men for that. The only person that accepted him was Jimmy(also better known as Drake).
Now while I like the 2000s for pop culture and the technology for its time, the social values during that time was problematic and has not age well.
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Post by SharksFan99 on Feb 26, 2021 9:38:00 GMT 10
This is that "Desperate Housewives" scene I spoke about earlier in this topic. It's only from 2007, yet it seems so out-of-touch and outdated in comparison to the attitudes of today. Especially that comment about knowing of gay couples due to "seeing them on cable".
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Post by Htiaf on Feb 27, 2021 8:18:56 GMT 10
I get the impression bullying was really bad in the 90’s. Idk if it’s because of how TV shows and movies depict 90’s bullies, but I’ve heard comments before describing how bullying was bad in the 90’s. If something was already not progressive in the 00’s I assume it wasn’t much better in the 90’s, considering it was the previous decade. There was very likely much more Muslim/Arab phobia in the 00’s than the 90’s because of 9/11 though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 9:49:03 GMT 10
Generally speaking I don’t necessarily disagree with the notion of the ‘90s being MORE progressive than the ‘00s and the Bush Years representing a visible regression of social mores, but again let’s not kid ourselves that the ‘90s themselves wouldn’t seem surprisingly conservative to our modern sensibilities.
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Post by Captain Nemo on Feb 27, 2021 11:12:42 GMT 10
In some ways, yes, but in others, no. The '00s did have the first instances of gay marriage being legalized, emo culture and genderbending being mainstream, the "Masculine Girl, Feminine Boy" trope in multiple cartoons and sitcoms, as well as the election of the first black president in the US. Not only that, but Barack Obama actually won his elections by a majority, while Bill Clinton won his elections by a plurality. (Ross Perot stole votes from Bush and Dole)
However, all the points everyone has made on this board of the '90s being the more progressive decade are still most certainly valid.
Both decades were certainly far more progressive than the '80s though, which was arguably the most socially regressive decade following the '50s. The '60s and '70s were decades of cultural revolution, with The Beatles, the Hippie Movement, David Bowie with his genderbending fashion style, as well as heavy influences of homosexual culture within the Disco and even the Heavy Metal genres. Not saying those decades were truly progressive, far from it in fact, but at least the facets of counterculture within those decades helped break a mold a bit. The '80s however, with the Reagan Revolution and the pop cultural obsession with "macho-manliness" (including in hair metal), plus with the AIDS pandemic going on and homosexuality being scapegoated for it, the '80s were socially backwards and regressive as fuck. Then the '90s came with the Grunge Movement, the World Health Organization de-listing homosexuality as a disease, and with more cartoons and sitcoms portraying the "Masculine Girl, Feminine Boy" trope, plus with the third-wave feminist movement as well. The '00s saw both a continuation of that progressive trend, but also a lot of backlash against it as well.
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Post by slashpop on Feb 27, 2021 23:28:58 GMT 10
I don’t believe the 80s were as homophobic and conservative as they are made out to be, even though it is the case to some extent, and maybe more so in the mid west or south.
I was really young through the latter half but you could be straight and wear hot pink clothing, flashy androgynous clothing, overly styled or teased hair, and and in some cases light make up as a straight male and that would be normal and not that uncommon for the most part.
There were also a lot of things that seem popular opposite to the conservative culture of the 1950s and in general. New wave, hip hop, hair metal, punk etc even pop acts like Madonna, Duran Duran, Depeche Mode, Micheal Jackson, Elvis Costello, George Micheal and Prince don’t have a conservative image like a big chunk of music from the early to mid 1970s and early 1960s.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2021 3:05:20 GMT 10
I don’t believe the 80s were as homophobic and conservative as they are made out to be, even though it is the case to some extent, and maybe more so in the mid west or south. I was really young through the latter half but you could be straight and wear hot pink clothing, flashy androgynous clothing, overly styled or teased hair, and and in some cases light make up as a straight male and that would be normal and not that uncommon for the most part. There were also a lot of things that seem popular opposite to the conservative culture of the 1950s and in general. New wave, hip hop, hair metal, punk etc even pop acts like Madonna, Duran Duran, Depeche Mode, Micheal Jackson, Elvis Costello, George Micheal and Prince don’t have a conservative image like a big chunk of music from the early to mid 1970s and early 1960s. Dressing effeminately is one thing; try BEING gay at the time. Also music was the realm of the counterculture, so it makes sense they would not seem conservative.
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Post by slashpop on Feb 28, 2021 3:53:47 GMT 10
I don’t believe the 80s were as homophobic and conservative as they are made out to be, even though it is the case to some extent, and maybe more so in the mid west or south. I was really young through the latter half but you could be straight and wear hot pink clothing, flashy androgynous clothing, overly styled or teased hair, and and in some cases light make up as a straight male and that would be normal and not that uncommon for the most part. There were also a lot of things that seem popular opposite to the conservative culture of the 1950s and in general. New wave, hip hop, hair metal, punk etc even pop acts like Madonna, Duran Duran, Depeche Mode, Micheal Jackson, Elvis Costello, George Micheal and Prince don’t have a conservative image like a big chunk of music from the early to mid 1970s and early 1960s. Dressing effeminately is one thing; try BEING gay at the time. Also music was the realm of the counterculture, so it makes sense they would not seem conservative. Pop music listed wasn't so much counter culture but rather mainstream . Punk and indie and early rave at the earlier stages and underground subcultures were counter culture. Boy George was a pop cultural icon as well. Mainstream culture okaying, normalizing and co-adopting androgynous and semi effeminate fashion early on , anyone from rick james to almost anyone automatically makes it’s a bit more tolerant, if anything even if it seems trivial, towards actual gays compare to 1950s and even other earlier periods. Never denied it was still pretty homophobic compared to other times in many ways but it also depends where you lived. A lot of artists and movements with lgbt were fully expressive at the time as well, again many of them were largely in the music industry The 80s as a decade has a gay vibe in general.
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